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6 Trump Co-Defendants Have Now Surrendered In Fulton Co.; Tonight: Candidates Face Off In First GOP Debate; Mark Meadows Seeks Emergency Court Order To Avoid Arrest. Aired 10-10:30a ET
Aired August 23, 2023 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[10:01:52]
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: On every occasion I'm telling the truth, that is what Rudy Giuliani is saying as he's on his way to Georgia right now to be arrested joining the flood of other co-defendants turning themselves in today.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump says he will proudly be arrested. Those are his words. And now we know he plans to do it in primetime.
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: It is debate day in America. Republican presidential candidates preparing to battle it out on stage but the front runner won't be there and now another candidate may miss the event tonight. Why? A basketball injury. I'm Sara Sidner with the unflappable Kate Bolduan and John Berman, all coming in right here at CNN News Central.
BOLDUAN: Right now Rudy Giuliani is on his way to Georgia, not on a midnight train but still. The former Trump lawyer is headed first to the Fulton County Courthouse to formalize his bond agreement. After that the man once called America's Mayor known for taking on the mob as a federal prosecutor will himself head to the county jail to be arrested.
Giuliani faces 13 state charges for trying to overturn the 2020 election results there, the most of anyone charged in this case alongside Trump. He spoke to reporters in New York as he left this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I don't know if I plead today. But if I do, I plead not guilty. And I get photographed. Isn't that nice? A mugshot for the man who probably put the worst criminals of the 20th century in jail. You find a prosecutor who hasn't been a record of mine in the last 100 years that you know or a mayor. And they get -- they're going to degrade themselves by doing a mugshot of me, like people will recognize me. And now of course they can fingerprint me but I've been fingerprinted 150 times. So this will turn out exactly like the FBI search turned out. They are lying. I'm telling the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Also this morning, two more co-defendants indicted have surrendered to the jail. Former Trump campaign lawyer Ray Smith and the architect of Trump's fake elector plot in the state Kenneth Chesebro. They turned themselves in. The 13 remaining co-defendants have until noon Friday to surrender. CNN's Paula Reid is at the courthouse. Nick Valencia is outside the Fulton County Jail. Paula, what more are you learning about Giuliani's plans today?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, we know Giuliani is on his way here to Georgia where he is expected to surrender. The first stop will be to the courthouse right behind me where his team will negotiate a bond agreement with a district attorney and then he can surrender to the Fulton County Sheriff's Office where he will be fingerprinted and also have his mugshot taken.
Traveling with him today, he has a small contingent his spokesman is coming with him. He's also expected to be traveling with Bernie Kerik, a former New York Police Commissioner, his longtime friend, Bernie Kerik is not a lawyer but he's been helping Giuliani try to find a lawyer amid his seven figure legal debt, Kate, that goes unpaid. He's had a difficult time retaining anything lawyer who'd be willing to represent him throughout this case.
[10:05:02]
Now today, all he needs is someone with a Georgia law license who can at least sign the bond agreement and it appears that they have found someone willing to do that. But it's unclear if this individual is willing to represent him throughout this case. Now, Giuliani could soon get a little more money to pay those legal bills. He is going to have a fundraiser thrown by former President Trump.
As CNN reported last week, the former president has agreed to do some fundraisers for him after Giuliani made an impassioned plea to the former president to help him with his legal debt. And the first invitation for one of those fundraisers is now out so that could help Giuliani pay down some of his debt, but still unclear if he can afford a lawyer to help him throughout this entire case.
BOLDUAN: All right, Paula, stick with us. Nick, talk to me about what you're learning about the booking process for the other co-defendants so far.
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, it's been a revolving door of activity here outside the Fulton County Jail. And we've had multiple defendants in this diversion case, turned themselves in in the last 48 hours. So just in the last hour, the former Trump attorney Ken Chesebro turned himself in. Of course, he is the architect of the fake electoral scheme, not just here in Georgia but beyond. And Chesebro has argued through his attorney that he never once stepped foot in Georgia on behalf of the Trump campaign, but he did surrender earlier today. Joining Chesebro is Ray Smith. He's the former Trump campaign attorney who prosecutors alleged was in the room when fake electors met here in Atlanta in December of 2020. He was also vocal about spreading misinformation about voter irregularities and voter fraud in the state of Georgia. Chesebro and Smith of course, join David Shafer and Cathy Latham, who turned themselves in overnight.
Shafer is the former head of the GOP here in the state of Georgia and was also instrumental in the fake electoral scheme. He has said in a court filing that he acted at the direction of the incumbent President Donald Trump, as well as other federal officials. And Cathy Latham, the former chair of the GOP in rural Coffee County, who was a fake collector herself, and also instrumental in the alleged scheme to access, illegally access voting data in Coffee County.
Look, it's really interesting because we've been talking to defense attorneys here in Fulton County, to ask them about this process. And they say that their clients who have been much like these defendants in this case are treated much differently. Earlier I spoke to Suri Chadha Jimenez, he's a defense attorney who's tied to another high profile RICO case in Atlanta happening right now. And I asked him about the treatment the defendants in the Trump's diversion case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SURI CHADHA JIMENEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I believe they're getting preferential treatment because like any celebrity, any person that are already, they cannot be put in general population. You want to get in and out as fast as possible, especially if they have a bond. They are inherent dangers by putting somebody that's famous, his celebrity with general population because they may create a risk for others. There might be a riot. Somebody might try to attack them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VALENCIA: Fulton County Sheriff Pat Labat has said he's going to treat everyone equally when it comes to this case remains to be seen if that will be applied to the former president when he is expected to surrender tomorrow. Kate?
BOLDUAN: Nick Valencia, thank you. Paula Reid, thank you guys both very much. Sara?
SIDNER: The lineup for the first Republican debate is in question this morning. That's because the governor Doug Burgum had to be taken to the emergency room after being injured while playing basketball. He is by the way, OK. He's out of the hospital. But we don't know if he's going to be able to join the other seven candidates on the debate stage tonight. One candidate we know won't be there is the front runner, Donald Trump. He chose not to participate and will instead appear in a pre-taped interview with his former "Fox" host, Tucker Carlson.
CNN political director David Chalian is joining us now. No surprise, the timing of Donald Trump doing an interview with Tucker Carlson. That's going to take some of the air out of the room, I'm sure. What are you watching for tonight with eight, maybe seven of the candidates?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. Well, as you mentioned, with Donald Trump, not on the stage, Sarah, I am looking to see how much of a presence he still has in this debate. You know, it is no doubt the "Fox" hosts have already sort of previewed in some pre debate interviews. Questions about Donald Trump will come up. That seems pretty certain. How much time is spent on it, and how much percentage the other candidates see in talking about Donald Trump versus taking the attacks to Joe Biden trying to introduce themselves to the Republican primary electorate, largely tuning in to for the first time in this race to make the case why they are the best positioned to be Joe Biden next fall.
SIDNER: When you look at this group of people, is this something that you see as a moment where you're going to start seeing people fall off that don't do well during this debate because the front runner is clearly Donald Trump by 20 points in polling?
CHALIAN: Yes, there is no doubt. He is the dominant front runner. But if you also look at polling is especially in early states like Iowa, New Hampshire, you see that roughly half the party is open to looking for a Trump alternative or downright not with the former president. That is the mission for the seven or eight candidates, as you noted, who will be on stage tonight to begin the work of trying to present themselves as that singular person that can bring that coalition of Republican primary voters those open to not being with the former president to their side. That is the opportunity tonight. But there's no doubt, the guy who won't be on the stage, Donald Trump, is the dominant front runner in this race.
[10:10:33]
SIDNER: I've got one more question for me. Because when you look at this, you see one and two, they have the highest polls. They are right next to each other. Do you expect there to be a real battle there between Ron DeSantis and Vivek Ramaswamy?
CHALIAN: Well, Ron DeSantis's team, Sara, said they think it's going to be a pile on DeSantis night. That's a little bit of expectation setting. But one key thing to watch tonight, Sara, how does Ron DeSantis handle that heat being the center of the stage, if indeed those attacks are coming, how he handles that will be very telling about this moment in his candidacy.
SIDNER: David Chalian always great to see you there live in Milwaukee for us as you wait for the debate and to give us all the great analysis. Appreciate you. John?
BERMAN: All right. With us now is the wonderful Washington bureau chief for USA Today, Susan Page, who happens to have also moderated the vice presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Mike Pence last time around so in that vein, Susan, there were two candidates on that stage with us separated by plexiglass, if people remember, I think. This time around, there are eight candidates assuming Doug Burgum limps onto the stage. What's the challenge with moderating a debate like this? SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY: Man, you know, the challenges in asking good questions, the challenge is getting a candidate to answer them to respond to the question as you know from the all the interviews you've done, that politicians are very skilled at answering the question they wished you would ask as opposed to the one you actually asked.
And when you're doing a one-on-one interview, you can follow up, you can persist and insist harder to do in a debate format, especially when you've got eight candidates up there on stage, John.
BERMAN: So you've noted that of these eight candidates, assuming Doug Burgum limps up onto the stage, on stage, they all have sort of different interests, they have different goals, success for Ron DeSantis may be different than success for Mike Pence and Vivek Ramaswamy. Talk about that a little bit.
PAGE: Not to mention Chris Christie. Yes, Ron DeSantis hopes to come out of this debate as the clear number two. You know, he's been the clear number two to Trump. And there's been good -- that's been called into some question, especially with kind of the surprising agility of Vivek Ramaswamy. So I would expect some tension some attacks back and forth between the two of them.
You know, Chris Christie has a different agenda entirely. He is in this race to call to account Donald Trump to say he ought to be have to answer for his actions on January 6th, his actions in trying to overturn the election. And he'll do it in that New Jersey way, the way of former prosecutor that is very hard to ignore, just ask Marco Rubio who was the subject of Christie's wrath the last time around in the 2016 debates.
BERMAN: So you've got a terrific column that we're you note sort of the five different things to look for or to guide the candidates in this debate. We don't have time to go through all five. But there are a couple I want to talk about. You mentioned the danger of oops, what do you mean?
PAGE: Well, does is there anyone who doesn't remember Rick Perry saying, oops, when he failed to recall the third government agency. He had called to dismantle and one that by the way, the Energy Department he later led in the Trump administration. So you know, this is a totally self-inflicted wound. And sometimes we only remember one thing from a debate, you know, in that case, it was moment in the vice presidential last time around, I think it was the fly that landed on Mike Pence has had. So you do not want to be the victim of the viral moment from a debate.
BERMAN: You'd much rather be the fly in that scenario. The one of the other things that caught my eye that you right, is that a debate like this typically a multi candidate debate early on? It's the most powerful jobs fair in the world. What do you mean?
PAGE: Well, you know, you wonder if some of these candidates really think they can be nominated for president this time around, but maybe they do think they could be a cabinet official in a new Trump administration or maybe they could get a big job in politics or maybe they could become, you know, a co-host on CNN. So there are a lot of good things that can happen to you. If you make a credible good impression in a presidential race, even if you don't end up moving into the White House.
BERMAN: Look, coming on this show they have to be able stand up for a long time. Susan Page, great to see you this morning. As always, it's wonderful to talk to you. Thank you very much. Kate?
BOLDUAN: Comfortable shoes or not, you can still do it.
[10:15:00]
Coming up for us, we're keeping a close eye on the Fulton County jail today as a parade of Donald Trump's co-defendants are turning themselves in and we're learning more about when the former president himself will join them. Plus, right now at least two of Trump's co- defendants, they're making last minute moves to try to avoid being arrested in Georgia. A look at what sets them apart and a look at whether it'll work. We'll be back.
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SIDNER: Two days and two hours now remain in Fulton County, Georgia until DA Fani Willis deadline for Donald Trump and all of the co- defendants to surrender. So far, six people have done just that. As for the rest, we know Rudy Giuliani is right now on his way. Trump says that he will turn himself in tomorrow. And Mark Meadows is kind of hoping he never has to.
[10:20:09]
Trump's former White House Chief of Staff is seeking an emergency court order to avoid being arrested. He wants his case to be placed in the federal courts. And he's not the only one, both Meadows and ex-DOJ official Jeffrey Clark once their case is moved. With us now former Deputy Assistant Attorney General there, Tom Dupree, thank you so much for being here. So more Trump defendants, you've just heard Jeffrey Clark there joining Meadows in trying to move the case to federal court. Will this work? They're trying -- I don't know how quickly the court is going to respond to this, they have only two days left to turn themselves in.
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure, this is an 11th hour emergency request. My sense is it's probably unlikely to succeed. If I were advising Mark Meadows, I would say, look, all well and good to make this request, maybe you'll get a last minute reprieve, but you need to be prepared to surrender. If he doesn't surrender, the DEA has pledged that she will issue a warrant for his arrest on Friday afternoon. Needless to say, as a lawyer, you don't want your client to be subject to a warrant and potentially be captured and start this case off as a fugitive.
So my sense is Meadows will hope he gets this last minute ruling from the judge. But I wouldn't bank on it. I'd be prepared to go to Atlanta by the end of this week. SIDNER: And you just said the thing that everyone should know, is that Fani Willis has said, look, I felt like I gave them plenty of time. And that if they do not, if they violate this, then I'm going to make sure that they face the consequences of this. But I do want to ask you about the merits of the case that Mark Meadows has tried to bring forward does he have a case that could potentially go to the federal courts?
DUPREE: My sense is he has a colorable argument. I don't think he's ultimately likely to succeed on it. What the federal judge is going to be deciding is whether Mark Meadows or any of the co-defendants who are trying to get these cases into federal court is whether or not Meadows was acting in his capacity as a Federal officer when he did what was alleged in the indictment and whether he has a colorable federal defense to make.
My sense is these arguments on Meadows part are not frivolous. But I do think it's an uphill battle. I think there's a good chance the judge will say, look, what you're charged with doing here went well beyond the role of a federal law officer, you exceeded your official duties in trying to tamper with this election. So my sense is it's probably unlikely to succeed. But I understand why he's making the argument as I said, it's not a frivolous one.
SIDNER: OK. I want to turn to Attorney John Eastman, a former Trump attorney, he was booked, mugshot taken as will happen to every single person that doesn't, including the former president. But I do want to ask you about what he said. I want you to listen to what he said he defended his actions after the 2020 election, here his response after he came out of jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN EASTMAN, CO-DEFENDANT, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: They target attorneys for their zealous advocacy on behalf of their clients, something attorneys are ethically bound to provide and which was attempted here by formally challenging the results of the election through lawful and appropriate means.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still think the election was stolen?
EASTMAN: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. Still?
EASTMAN: No question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: So he's making the case that they're just going after attorneys who are doing their jobs, does that hold any water?
DUPREE: Well, it's a bit of a stretch based on what was alleged in the indictment. I mean, look, everyone understands and agrees that attorneys do have a duty to zealously defend their client's interests and to pursue whatever remedies are permissible under the law. But there's a limit. And if you are making arguments that either you know are totally unsupported by the law, or that a reasonable lawyer would know or impermissible or you're doing things that go outside the law, such as bringing improper pressure to bear on state officials to flip the results, that does exceed the notion of what an attorney can do, even within the sphere of legitimate advocacy.
So again, tough argument to make, but I understand why he's doing it. And if you're a lawyer in this situation, it's not surprising you would make that argument.
SIDNER: Right. You're innocent, he knows this, until proven guilty. He is making one of the arguments that may be made eventually in court. But there were other attorneys telling them not to do this. So it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out with all of the 19 defendants in this particular case. Thank you so much, Tom Dupree. It's always a pleasure. Now, to you Kate.
BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, tonight's Republican debate happening in Wisconsin, a critical state when it comes to 2024. What the numbers say on that, next.
[10:24:42]
And the Fulton County Jail, it's going to be busy today. Rudy Giuliani, the co-defendant facing the most charges alongside Donald Trump. He is getting ready to turn himself in. Stay with us.
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BERMAN: All right, just in, we have learned that Attorney Sydney Powell who's at the center of a lot of the controversial meetings and strategies after the 2020 election, she has struck a bond agreement for $100,000. She is the latest person to reach that deal. This means she will now report to the jail, go to jail literally, be processed and released. So add Sydney Powell to that list. That's the legal circus today.
[10:30:03]
In terms of politics, just in, we have a Burgum bulletin. It is unclear if North Dakota Governor Doug.
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